Loretta Butler-Turner in the House of Assembly.
By SANCHESKA BROWN
Tribune Staff Reporter
sbrown@tribunemedia.net
DEPUTY Leader Loretta Butler Turner yesterday questioned why the government is spending more money to have nine new ships built for the Royal Bahamas Defence Force than the FNM planned to spend on 11 from the same company less than two years ago.
Mrs Butler Turner also questioned what the additional $8 million, which has been earmarked for “changes that might arise during the scope of the project” is really going to be used for.
Making her contribution in the House of Assembly, the Long Island MP said she found it “curious” that the government is now paying more money for fewer ships.
“What I find curious, is that for the nine ships, according to yesterday’s press release and confirmation from the Member for Bain and Grants Town, there is $149 million to be spent on nine ships. So we are talking about 11 ships in 2012 which would be $120 million if rounded up and today we are talking about nine vessels that are going to cost $149 million,” Mrs Butler Turner said.
“Most of the ships are the same, there have been some changes, but generally we are getting fewer ships and we are paying more money and I think it would be useful in this exercise to see where the money is going. It is interesting some of the members cannot do their math, this is a money bill so I must have the right to be able to question the finances of the Bahamian people and how it is being spent.”
Mrs Butler Turner also questioned where the additional $8 million that the government is borrowing will be spent.
“While I can appreciate that the dredging costs and civil works may be more, there is also an additional $8 million that we still have not gotten clarification on with regard to the total package of $232 million because $149 million and $75 million only comes to $224 million. Where is the other $8 million for?”
The Christie administration tabled a resolution yesterday to borrow $232 million to purchase nine new Royal Bahamas Defence Force vessels.
The loan with Deutsche Bank will facilitate $149 million to build each of the ships and an additional $75 million to cover civil works for a total of $224 million. The remaining $8 million, Dr Nottage said, will accommodate any changes that may arise during the scope of the project.
Michael Halkitis, State Minister for Finance, told the House of Assembly in the evening session that the added change in price to the overall cost is because “the dredging specifications” for the Coral Harbour RBDF Base and the base in Mathew Town, Inagua, has increased, therefore creating additional expense.
Comments
B_I_D___ 10 years, 8 months ago
29 million extra due to dredging specifications being changed...he really does think we are idiots.
TalRussell 10 years, 8 months ago
The things this Deputy Leader be's pok'in her nose into. Comrade Sister Loretta, MP for Long Island represents probably the only major Island anywhere in Bahamaland that does not have an influx of Haitians. In fact they say, you can load the Island's entire population of Haitians into a Jitney. An MP with no pressing need to buy new marine craft to have Bahamaland's Marine Defense Forces patrol boats to be cruising around Long island.
B_I_D___ 10 years, 8 months ago
You saying she shouldn't be poking her nose in it? I'm very curious as to why we are now having to pay more for less...29 Million MORE...plus we get 2 less boats. Must be our highly selective bargaining teams...they will find a way to 'spend' that extra 8 million for reserve costs...don't worry about that either!! Someone has a house that needs some work...or a new house they want built somewhere...
TalRussell 10 years, 8 months ago
Comrade for same reason a gallon of milk has skyrocketed in price ...inflation. If Loretta and her reds were so damn smart why didn't they sign the boats deal when it was guaranteed be $29 million less? Oh yeah, too busy defending sale BTC and instructing NIB write check for $11 million make beer. I sure hope she ran this pass "he own outlook on things PLP" Darron before she spoke? You don't just negotiate a deal with a ship builder, walk away and then expect same price when you return negotiating table. Ask Super Value's Rupert all about inflation cause he's always saying how he's going have close stores and lay off workers cause everything costing more today. So does boats cost more build, since Loretta and her cabinet colleagues failed to sign on dotted line when the price was $29 million cheaper.
B_I_D___ 10 years, 8 months ago
Just using simple math...that's some serious inflation, even for a boat builder...2 years ago, 120 Mil for 11 boats...so 10.9 Mil average...2 years later, 149 Mil for 9 boats...16.5 Mil average per boat...DAMN!! I'm in the wrong business!! Over a 50% increase in cost over 2 years.
realfreethinker 10 years, 8 months ago
Very good observation B-I-D. I wait to hear the answer to your post on the numbers.
spoitier 10 years, 8 months ago
I was going along with her until she said "Most of the ships are the same, there have been some changes." She is wrong right there because she should've had expert opinion to calculate the difference in the boat versus the difference in price. I'm not taking up for the PLP crooks but the intelligent thing to do is get the expert opinion first because she probably don't know the difference between a Dinky and a Boston Whaler
shortpants 10 years, 8 months ago
Tal you really have a complex problem when it comes to these bunch of thieves. Why would she not question what the extra monies for,because they will be the first to shout you'll knew about it.It's to line their pockets all them a bunch of crooks from the DUMB ass PM.You are BI-POLAR bad.
sheeprunner12 10 years, 8 months ago
Comrade Tal, I guess you dont jack about Long Island. You cant fill a Honda Civic with the Haitians on Long Island. On the other hand, at least half of the income on Long Island comes from fishing. We need the RBDF to stop the damn Dominican poachers.
TheMadHatter 10 years, 8 months ago
That is correct. This is because the people of Long Island have the good sense not to hire Haitians. No money for them, so no food, so they can't live there. Simple.
Unfortunately Abaco, Freeport, and Nassau have a lust for Haitians that is beyond measure. They love hiring them, paying them money that they can transfer out of the country - and then everyone can stand around and say "We don't have any money and no jobs". Of course, not. The Haitians have the jobs and the residents of Haiti have 90% of the money that the local ones here earn. They only use 10% to buy plantains, turkey wings, and baby food. The rest is shipped out.
What's wrong with those Long Island people? They racist or something, eh? Don't they know we are supposed to be handing over our whole country to Haiti? Don't they know the immigration in Nassau stopped having the bus raids? They came up with a good plan with the help of a banker to cast a dark shadow on them raids so they would have to stop. Now the Haitians can ride the bus to and from work without fear. Regular Bahamians can't ride though, cause they ain't got the $1.25 to pay the fare. You need a job for that.
TheMadHatter
birdiestrachan 10 years, 8 months ago
This is the same Government that had a 100 million dollars over run. Questioning 8 million dollars. Mr. Halkitis explained it so well that a four year old could understand. and Ms. Turner knows that there is something called inflation. But she must have her starring roll ,camera, Lights . And one up on Doctor NO Minnis.
You know what they say some people always believe some one is stealing something . Mr. .Halkitis is a fine upstanding man. a good example of what a Bahamian young man should be. Notice how he conducts himself and his speech. May the good Lord bless him. God has already blessed him with a good brain. I believe it has something to do with the values installed in persons from Cat Island. Take note of the outstanding persons who came from Cat Island, There is something in them.
god did give him a good ,
newcitizen 10 years, 8 months ago
I suggest you have a look at B_I_D__'s comments here on inflation. Or perhaps even do the math yourself because you're looking at 50% inflation in 2 years.
spoitier 10 years, 8 months ago
Mr. Halkitis is a fine upstanding man until he jump ship to the FNM, then he is the worst thing on the face of God's earth.
TalRussell 10 years, 8 months ago
Don't you think Comrade Loretta as the deputy leader of Her Majesty's Loyal Opposition should have first become familiarized with the skyrocketing inflation that has hit all boat builders the world over? Just one call to any boat builder by the deputy leader would have stopped her from talking about something she has zero knowledge about. Is she now suggesting Hubert took her into his confidence over any negotiations he might have had as minister of finance pertaining boat building? Hardly likely. Not only have skyrocketing material costs gone through the roof but the availability of boat building materials presents a serious problem to boat builders. Comrades if we are to take Loretta at face value,only two conclusions can be drawn here, ether the boat builders are such bad business people that they would price themselves out of winning new contracts in an highly competitive boat building market by a cool $29 million, or someone in PLP is pocketing a windfall? Of course their is always that third option, she talk'in just make noise on political 'leadership" scene. Had Loretta made just one single phone call she would have known that many boat builders have gone bankrupt or simply closed their doors since she sat in Hubert's cabinet. A cabinet that spent and borrowed more money than all the Pindling administrations spent and borrowed collectively. Maybe Darron has a point about. all Loretta and her reds know how do, is to oppose, oppose and copse anything PM Christie does, and it matters not that the reds have no plan of their own to put before Bahamalander's. Darron for leader.
newcitizen 10 years, 8 months ago
50% inflation for boat builders in 2 years? I think not Tal. Your second option is the one that is the winner. Someone is pocketing a windfall.
Do we even know who bid on this? Was this an open and transparent bidding process with requests for proposals, or public tenders? No, it was another backroom deal. Just another corrupt dealing to add to the growing list.
hurricane 10 years, 8 months ago
Ahh...the "comrade" guy has been busy i this section! LOL
242 10 years, 8 months ago
na she was lock up for trying to grab the mace
sheeprunner12 10 years, 8 months ago
Anyone who has the gall to support this PLP led-government deserve where this country is heading..................... south to the Cayman conference to talk about ETHICS. This government has no ethics........................................ SAD, SAD, SAD All you pro-Perry/PLP commentators.................... hang your head in shame
Emac 10 years, 8 months ago
Sheeprunner, the point is they ain gat no shame. You have to understand that there are people in this world who will never see the truth, no matter how hard it hits them in the face.
spoitier 10 years, 8 months ago
The same thing with the FNM, they both suck and only look out for themselves.
jamesg30 10 years, 8 months ago
More $2,000 suites for the guys in charge, while the country struggles.
GQ 10 years, 8 months ago
Tal, you are the biggest A hole in the Bahamas.
DEDDIE 10 years, 8 months ago
Its actually insane to still be patrolling the Bahamas by boat when it is cheaper to use planes. Ten Cessna 208 properly outfitted with the latest technology would probably cost the government about 2 million dollars each for a grand total of 20 million.They can patrol the entire Bahamas in less than three hours every morning. Place about 20 go fast boats(10 arm defence forceofficers each) along the chain of islands from Inagua straight on up to Bimini. Once the plane spots a suspicious boat than a go fast boat can be dispatch to intercept.If the boats are properly position they should reach any point in the Bahamas in less than an hour.
newcitizen 10 years, 8 months ago
Those Cessna's could just be UAV's and bring the figure down to $200,000 for each. There is absolutely no thinking or logic that went into buying these boats other than somebody lining their pockets with the people's money.
TalRussell 10 years, 8 months ago
Comrade GQ, not that I mind you calling me names but the next time you're so inclined could you try whispering, so the entire Tribune readership are not in listening-in.
hurricane 10 years, 8 months ago
Comrade Tal, would you please stop abusing the word "comrade" on a daily basis? Limited vocab huh?
TalRussell 10 years, 8 months ago
I wouldn't be abusing Comrade but if I always speak big long grammar words, how would you understand me? You think I talk this way, if I didn't have to? No worry cause if we ever meet I'll drop the Comrade and speak painfully slowly. i still think you're a great Comrade brother, Bahamalander or foreigner makes no difference to me.
hurricane 10 years, 8 months ago
You're just in love with that word. Knock yourself out...LOL
TheMadHatter 10 years, 8 months ago
First we cannot afford to borrow any more money. The deficit is projected at 5000 million by July. 200 million is just way to much to spend on boats.
Secondly, are we planning to have that many more Haitian sloops on their way here to run out of gas that we need 9 more ships to tow them to Nassau?
All the defense force boats do is provide FREE TRANSPORTATION to Haitian boats that run out of fuel on their way to Nassau. Several have been towed in the last 3 months.
Wouldn't tug boats be cheaper? Or just any kind of medium sized boat with 2 good diesel engines and some thick rope? I mean, if I was having the intention of towing Haitian boats into the center island of our country - that's what I would buy. It would leave me more money to spend on fuel, or to buy new ropes if the current ones pop. They might pop, you know, depending on the number of Haitians on a particular boat, especially since lots of them got "belly swell" and they be heavier.
They really oughta just change the name from "Royal Bahamas Defense Force" to "Freddie's Towing Service". And the slogan can be "We ga tow ya, even if ya cah pay."
TheMadHatter
killemwitdakno 10 years, 8 months ago
"Following a six-year acquisition program, the Government of the Bahamas.. " http://www.damen.com/news/2013/04/patro…
http://worldmaritimenews.com/archives/8…
11 vessels to be bought were detailed on pg 21 of the fnm 2012 manifesto." 4- 70ft bank class, 4-180 ft bank class, 2 -140 ft island class, 1 -170 ft auxiliary vessel". http://www.scribd.com/doc/89158634/FNM-… http://www.tribune242.com/news/2012/apr…
Now after signing the letter of intent for this same acquisition they're getting " four Damen Stan Patrol 4201 vessels – 138 feet long with an 8 feet draft, four Damen Stan Patrol 3007 vessels – 98 feet wide with a 6.5 feet draft, and 9 Rigid Inflatable Boats." http://www.tribune242.com/news/2014/mar…
Question 10 years, 8 months ago
98 feet wide boats?
killemwitdakno 10 years, 8 months ago
See the length of the models http://www.damen.com/markets/stan-patrol
killemwitdakno 10 years, 8 months ago
Some descriptions of these are:
Damen- " Stan Lander 5612, a dedicated roll-on, roll-off landing craft which will be fitted with a 25 tonne crane and demountable disaster relief equipment. Special containers will be acquired to provide emergency relief, medical facilities, desalinated water and sanitary equipment which will rapidly be deployed in the event of a natural disaster. In addition, eight patrol vessels, four of the Damen Stan Patrol 4207 type and another four type SPa 3007, will join the Bahamas’ fleet."
Fleet expert blogger comments " One, a “San Lander 5612,” is a small ro/ro much like the old LCUs, intended for disaster response. Four will be a version of Damen’s, Stan Patrol 4207, 42 meter patrol boats, which includes the Canadian patrol boats we discussed earlier, that are closely related to the Coast Guard’s own Fast Response Cutter. What I found particularly interesting were the four smaller patrol boats with a Damen developed “axe bow” because they may give us a glimpse at the future replacement for the 87 foot “Marine Protecctor” class WPBs (27 meters long, 6 meter beam), which was also a Damen design. Its designation, SPa 3007, indicates it is 30 meters long and a 7 meter beam (98.4 ft long, 23 ft beam)."http://chuckhillscgblog.net/2013/04/19/…
So If 3007, indicates it is 30 meters long and a 7 meter beam (98.4 ft long, 23 ft beam) then a 4207 must mean 138 ft and 23ft beam. So these 8 patrols are now all significantly smaller than fnms 180 ft bank class (4), 140 ft island class (2), and 170 ft auxiliary vessel. And now 9 inflatables aka Dinghys?
http://www.damen.com/markets/stan-patrol
killemwitdakno 10 years, 8 months ago
PLEASE TELL ME IF THIS WAS ALREADY BUDGETED FOR WHY THE HELL PLP CLAIMING TO BORROW MONEY FOR THIS SPECIFIC PROJECT A FULL YEAR AFTER THE SIGNING OF INTENT WHEN THEY'VE SPENT 3BN SO FAR ALREADY AND THIS IS THE ONLY ALLOCATION OF BORROWED FUNDS I'VE HEARD OF YET. WHAT'S COSTING AN EXTRA $100 MILLION?
"The vessels will serve to increase patrol capacity and create an "effective dragnet and defense posture, and will include four 70-foot vessels, at a cost of $21 million; four 108-foot vessels, at a cost of $46 million; two 140-foot vessels, at a cost of $27 million; and one 170-foot supply vessels, at a cost of $12 million. That's for a total of some $120 million to be expended on increasing the patrol capacity of the Royal Bahamas Defence Force, Mr Ingraham said." http://www.tribune242.com/news/2012/apr…
Ask Jamaica or Mexico how much they paid- "The two StanPatrol 4207 patrol boats – ARM Tenochtitlan (PC-331) and ARM Teotihuacan (PC-332) were built at a cost of $9 million USD each at ASTIMAR 1 in Tampico, Tamaulipas and completed in April and May 2012" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Damen_Sta… http://www.damen.com/en/news/2013/05/th…
killemwitdakno 10 years, 8 months ago
HAI said the 15 ft dredge would cost $20 mil. Also the smaller boats in this new deal should compensate something for the 4 docks and Contracted maintenance or whatever else in that video ( which HIA mentioned "We also plan to develop a base in Grand Bahama, and sub-bases in Abaco and Exuma."We will maintain a continuous presence at strategic choke-points throughout the length and breadth of our island-chain in order to combat poaching as well as gun, drug and human trafficking ). So they traded out four 70-foot vessels, at a cost of $21 million; four 108-foot vessels, at a cost of $46 million; for two more of the 140-foot vessels ($27 million for 2 HIA said = 13.5mil each, which mexico paid $9 mil each for the same boats some years earlier ) and four bank able ones, the 3007s instead ( bigger than the 70footers). The 9 Rigid dhingeys don't cost no million dollars even combined.
Estimating based on HIA's budget ~$13.5 x 4 (140ft 4207s) = 54 million ~max $10 (doubt it) x 4 ( at 98 ft the 3007s are bigger than the 70ft @ 5.25 million ea) = 40 million ~ same supply boat ( not mentioned in tribune's latest post but accounted for by Damen) 12 mil ~at least one doc for sure cost $20 mil ~9 blow up boats probably no where near even $400 grand (guessing) = $126,400,000
now even if you add a preposterous $20 mil for each extra dock which it sure as hell is not, total would be $186,400. Still leaving $45, 600, 000 went to somewhere.
killemwitdakno 10 years, 8 months ago
Compare this whole project to the one Damen and Van de Kreke did for Dubai http://www.thenational.ae/business/indu… http://www.damen.com/en/news/2014/01/da…
http://www.ihsmaritime360.com/article/1…
In brief, an investment of Dh365m (1 Dirham= .20 cents , total project cost = $99 million):
284,000 square-metre site ( however many ft a sq meters is) , has 1,200 metres of quay, and a water depth up to nine metres (29.5 ft compared to our 15 ft). Something about getting more than 120 vessels a year, a new vessel built and delivered to them each month ( this either means from Damen or for the new yard to build itself). Something about an order of 70 vessels under contract (again this either means from Damen or for the new yard to build itself) However the two multicats, two shoalbusters, two barges, one aluminium crew boat and 10 ASD tugs mentioned are Damen purchases for sure (shipyard boats as opposed to our navy boats I guess). The yard built also has facilities to repair and construct all type of vessels.
Dubai's purchases: http://damensharjah.com/en/products http://www.damen.com/markets/multi-cat http://www.damen.com/markets/shoalbuster http://www.damen.com/markets/pontoons-a… http://www.damen.com/en/markets/fast-cr… http://www.damen.com/en/news/2013/03/da…
A purchase this planned might have already been in the kitty , and if not , why couldn't 3bn spent so far account for it some damn where. YOU TELLING ME DUBAI SPENT LESS FOR MORE??.
Enough people out here know boats and work to shipyards.
bismark 10 years, 8 months ago
kickbacks,kickbacks
Emac 10 years, 8 months ago
@GQ-I don't think Tal is the biggest “A” hole in the Bahamas. Unfortunately Tal is in denial. Tal reminds me of the typical Bahamian mother who has this troublesome child that wreaks havoc on society. The child always runs in problem with the law, stealing, racketeering and breaking every law in the book. Everyone can see that this child is a no good nuttin piece a shite- But not the mother. No, not her good chile!
sheeprunner12 10 years, 8 months ago
LOL..... thats a good one Emac. Just one question.................................... Will we buy these boats and not maintain them like the HMBS Bahamas and Nassau and after 5 years, they are in the bone yard?????????? I like the idea of the Cessnas and UAVs/go-fast boats. Its cheaper and more efficient. Renward "Einstein" Wells was making a lot of sense.
JohnDoes 10 years, 8 months ago
The thing is, when these new boats arrive, a lot of the boats that are already under plenty stress or partially fit for duty will be decommissioned and of course majority of them will be replaced.
TalRussell 10 years, 8 months ago
Of course when you combine the think’in camaraderie atmosphere of a Hurricane and EMC, why not throw-in your true thoughts like; "Tal reminds us of the typical 'singled/unwed' mother with a bastard child. What more could you expect her to raise than this troublesome child that wreaks havoc on society. Her child is destined to always runs in problems with the law, stealing, racketeering and breaking every law in the book. Everyone can see that this child is a no good nuttin piece a shite- who will grow up to run afoul of the law. An ideal candidate to be running numbers, another one them entitlement politicians (like there is a difference in today's Bahamaland), maybe even a murderer."
Did I get this one right cause it's so damn easy to lay the blame on "single/unwed mothers," who to some are always at very roots of the nation's crime and blatant corruption ...right Comrades?
JohnDoes 10 years, 8 months ago
I wonder why we haven't invested in any 'Air Power' yet. We cant afford jets and their maintenance, but in this day and age, Helicopters for both Defence Force and Police would be a great asset. The view from above is far more adequate, and a lot of area can be monitored. Imagine how many ships 1-4 helicopters strategically placed throughout the country can replace in terms of reconnaissance. The bird in the sky can effectively dispatch ships to right areas for interdiction. I mean why has this not even been considered? We cannot depend on just the U.S Coast Guard because when they leave our territory to observe other ones, we are actually blind in terms of proper defense. Has anyone seen those '206 Jet Ranger Helicopters'? They can of course be modified/customized for proper reconnaissance for example. Paint them a special color, with proper identification like they did our new police vehicles, they can even be armed in case of emergencies etc. The possibilities are endless.
proudloudandfnm 10 years, 8 months ago
First off I sincerely doubt we'll see any ships from this.
If we do then I can't honestly say it's that bad a thing. Lord knows we need to be patrolling our waters with more resources and diligence.
But what I fear will happen, and our history does say this is more than likely. Is that if they do buy these ships the ships will come to Nassau and sit idle at Prince George for the rest of our lives.
If that happens then the Bahamas just literally threw away a quarter of a billion dollars....
Emac 10 years, 8 months ago
@Tal-Come now Tal, be fair. I was not mocking single mothers. Even though my father lived with us, my mother operated as a single mother, providing for us while instilling manners,respect etc. With that said, If my mother was able to to do all of this, why should we excuse these single mothers who have even more opportunities that she did. I am sorry but everyone has a choice in life. If a woman keep making babies after one, while single, then she is just plain stupid. Only callin it as I see it. Everyone looking for excuses in life.
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