0

Operation Potcake has been cancelled following opposition from local vets. How do you think the spay and neuter programme should be run?

As they did last year, foreign volunteers should be allowed to operate for free. 706 votes

97.11%

Local vets should undertake the project at a cost of $50 per surgery. 21 votes

2.89%

727 total votes

Comments

HarryWyckoff 10 years, 11 months ago

Really, how backwards is the VMAB being here.

They've had years to step up and help with the nation's Potcake problem, and have failed miserably.

Now they are refusing to allow vets VOLUNTEERING from overseas to enter the country to help deal with the problem.

And why? Because somehow, they think these stray potcakes should all be paying $50 each.

I guess the VMAB isn't quite smart enough to realise that STRAY dogs don't have owners. Or bank accounts. or $50 in cash between their paws.

Protectionist fools who put profit before betterment of the country.

They are a disgrace.

PBizzell 10 years, 11 months ago

For your information Bahamian vets have been doing pro bono work and organizing and participating in free and low cost spay and neuter programs for the past 40 years! The reason that the stray and roaming dog problem is still with us relates more to ineffective canine control that a lack of spay and neuter programs. Op Pot did 2,200 spays/neuters which was a wonderful effort. Proud Paws has done over 7,000 spays/neuters over the past 10 years using only Bahamian vets andBahamian surgical assistants funded by Bahamian residents;no outside vets were required.

The solution to the stray and roaming dog problem is a week by week sustained and persistent spay and neuter project that is done by Bahamian vets in a Bahamian clinics with the help of Bahamian staff and assisted by Bahamian volunteers. If 3,000 animals could be spayed and neutered every year, which is an attainable goal if all Nassau clinics participate, as they have said they will, we will see a gradual decline in stray and roaming dogs. This is the only long term, sustainable way to deal with the problem. Local vets have agreed to this provided their expenses are paid.

Regarding the $50.00 cost per dog this is only enough to cover the cost of materials used. Spays in the USA cost $300-500.00. In 1970 the cost of a dog spay in The Bahamas was $35.00.........that's makes the present day cost of materials seem extremely low.

Protectionist fools ....give me a friggin break!!

You need to investigate more carefully before posting such an ill formed and inaccurate rant!

Jack 10 years, 11 months ago

Bizzell. If you're not making any money they why are you trying to stop others from coming in?? If you were so sure that you're just breaking even then it would make much more sense for you to just let the other vets come and do the full 5 days while you guys get on with your precious practices.

You've never supported this project, you sure as hell don't care about animals, only turning a profit. Bahamian vets doing something for free, don't make me laugh.

PBizzell 10 years, 11 months ago

Jack for your information the VMAB approved the participation of foreign vets in Op Pot while I was the President .....at a special meeting held after the new slate of officers was elected this decision was reversed. I was not at that meeting and I did not, and do not approve of their decision! Perhaps you should be directing your considerable zeal and animus elsewhere!

JackG 10 years, 11 months ago

If you really do pro bono spay and neuter why do you need $50 per dog? Perhaps you need to look up what pro bono really means. Just saying.....

Zags 10 years, 11 months ago

Please see my post below for the answer to your query.

ETJ 10 years, 11 months ago

Pro bono means FREE, not $50 per. Wonderful that you did over 7000 surgeries ($350,000!) but...then why is there still such a problem? Obviously because that was not nearly enough. And again what is the plan by the VMAB to actually solve this problem instead of continuing to do a trickle to be paid for by struggling humane societies and rescues, and to stop efforts that might actually have a meaningful impact in a shorter period of time?

What do you mean by ineffective canine control programs? If you are implying that more animals need to be killed you are so woefully behind the times it's not even funny. Please do your homework on EFFECTIVE and HUMANE solutions to pet over population problems. If you are advocating catching and killing more animals, that does not speak well of you as a veterinary professional. Not in 2013. It has not been recognized as an effective method of animal control, for many many years now.

Local vets have agreed to this providing their expenses are paid??? Why should animal welfare orgs be held hostage like this if there are people willing to come in here and do more in a shorter time frame than local vets are able to do? There is no shame in that, but there is shame in local vets stopping such efforts without a comparable effort being made and maybe just maybe a little TRUE pro bono, i.e. FREE, work being donated. You are not helping the reputation and public opinion of local vets with posts such as this. People are disgusted and frustrated and your reasoning is irrational and defensive. Not one iota of concern for the helpless animals. THIS is the problem, and the disconnect that the VMAB caused with that highly offensive letter, absolutely needs to be rectified if they hope to salvage any public support at all. You cannot beat reasonable, ordinary, caring people over the head and expect them to capitulate to unreasonable and ineffective demands. Being negative and defensive only makes you look worse. If indeed the VMAB is committed to dealing with this problem, then surely face to face meetings would have been preferable to that awful negative letter; and waiting til almost the 11th hour before Operation Potcake was to commence has not helped.

PBizzell 10 years, 11 months ago

So sorry I could not find the $350,000 to spay 7,000 animals from my own resources....of course it's the vets fault we have a dog overpopulation problem...we of course should take the time and foot the bill for the materials used for spaying every every dog and cat in The Bahamas...you think?

ETJ 10 years, 11 months ago

I don't believe anyone is suggesting that. However the VMAB does seem to be suggesting that animal welfare groups should be responsible for finding $50 for each spay and neuter whether for a stray pet or those owned by indigent owners. The problem is not their fault either.

PBizzell 10 years, 11 months ago

If we intend to spay and neuter our way out of the dog overpopulation problem we need to spay and neuter 20,000 animals. Even the great work done by Op Pot only made a dent in the problem

PBizzell 10 years, 11 months ago

By "effective canine control" I mean an island wide outreach program headed by trained professionals and assisted by trained volunteers. Really that is what Op Pot did in2013. The work would include education basic veterinary care, spaying and neutering of course and in some instances humane euthanasia to end the suffering of the worst of the unwanted and diseased dogs and cats. I am most certainly not advocating the old model of "round them all and sleep 'em" dog catching.

The Animal Protection and Control. Act was drafted with this goal in mind.

ETJ 10 years, 11 months ago

Sadly, legislation alone will never solve this problem; especially legislation that does not get implemented and enforced.

PBizzell 10 years, 11 months ago

I agree but without legislation there is no framework to organise a solution to the problem. I think The Animal Protection and Control Act is posted under bahamasgov.com

Zags 10 years, 11 months ago

Your understanding of the financing of spay/neuter projects in The Bahamas is lacking. Please see the explanation in my post below. As someone who has contributed financially to several spay/neuter projects in The Bahamas, including Operation Potcake, I feel that it needs to be explained to the general public...

christinasmith 10 years, 11 months ago

yes, they are a disgrace, but our mealy mouthed Prime Minister is even more of a disgrace, he can easily overide the Bahamian Vets by immediately agreeing to issue permits to bring in the voluteer vets It's a no brainer.

FamilyIslandMan123 10 years, 11 months ago

This was a good thing, a simple thing. People coming from all over to help our Potcakes, educate our children and support our Bahamaland. Sad that sick, selfish, money hungry fools can hurt us all this way. It's just sad. Please let us know if we can help in some other way.

PBizzell 10 years, 11 months ago

What an ill-informed rant!! Read the rest of my post and get a true picture of what has been proposed!

FamilyIslandMan123 10 years, 11 months ago

Rant, perhaps. Ill-informed, let's see:

  1. Did the VMAB block foreign vets and volunteers from entering the Bahamas for this event? (By the way Peter, did you consider how this influx of 100's of volunteers helps the rest of the us because they use our shops, ride in our taxis and eat in our restaurants?)
  2. Did you then propose to hold the event but for less days (even though admitting it would be less successful)?
  3. Finally, since you blocked the free outside help from coming in and then shortened the program, did you then propose to charge $50 a procedure.

Does not 1+ 2 + 3 = a vastly lower amount of dogs being treated at a vastly higher cost + a much reduced outreach/educational program because of the reduction of volunteers?

Would it not have been more beneficial to the animals and the community to not block the foreign vets and volunteers from coming in? Then the local vets who wanted to participate could do so and those who found the terms too onerous could decline from participating?

Peter - I am listening, please advise what part of that is ill-informed.

PBizzell 10 years, 11 months ago

Under my tenure as President of the VMAB I advocated for and obtained the approval of the majority of our members to approve the participation of foreign vets in Op Pot 2013 and again for Op Pot 2014. My term as President ended in October 2013. A special meeting of theVMAB was called after the new slate of officers was elected and the decision to approve the participation of foreign vets was overturned. I was not at that meeting, I did not and do not approve of this decision!

Zags 10 years, 11 months ago

Actually, FamilyIslandMan23, it turns out that we all jumped to the wrong conclusion. Information is now coming out that it was NOT Dr. Bizzell who objected to OP 2014. He was President of the VMAB when OP 2013 took place, and had approved OP 2014, on behalf of the VMAB, a few weeks before his term ended. That approval was reversed when the new officers of the VMAB took over in October. Apparently dissension in the ranks of the VMAB had been growing all year and this is the result. Seems that there is much more to this story than meets the eye...

proudloudandfnm 10 years, 11 months ago

Or let the local vets do it for free.

PBizzell 10 years, 11 months ago

They WILL do it for free but need the rest of you to pay for the materials used!!

JackG 10 years, 11 months ago

If the foreign Vets are willing to d it for free and cover their own material costs where do you come up with $50 per do? Be better if you just go back to England where perhaps you belong.

Zags 10 years, 11 months ago

Please see my post below which explains, inter alia, how the Operation Potcake materials were paid for.

PBizzell 10 years, 11 months ago

Jack you know that the materials to be used by foreign vets was provided by Op Pot from donors within The Bahamas.

ETJ 10 years, 11 months ago

The rest of who??? People who had nothing to do with this problem's proliferation to begin with? Wow. This just goes to show why the letter from the VMAB is receiving such negative attention.

PBizzell 10 years, 11 months ago

The rest of you are the hundreds or even thousands of animal lovers in this country. There are only 23 or so registered vets in The Bahamas and of these only 14 are experienced surgeons. If we volunteer our time for free why should 14 vets also pay for the materials used...shouldn't that cost be paid by whoever out of 375,000 Bahamians cares about animals? The government make little or no no contribution to animal welfare.

ivyelden 10 years, 11 months ago

And where do they think the people who "own" these animals are going to get $50? These animals would never, ever see vet for any reason, due to their "owners" inability or unwillingness to pay....ergo, would it not make perfect sense to spay/neuter them for free so that they are at least not reproducing endlessly? And the local vets are not the slightest bit interested in doing this, so if we have volunteers willing to come to our country and take their precious time to help alleviate our stray dog problem (which, by the way, affects our tourist industry negatively), why not welcome them with open arms???? Other Caribbean countries are certainly taking advantage of their generosity! This is a no-brainer!

PBizzell 10 years, 11 months ago

No matter which way you slice it it will cost an average of $50.00 per surgery. Is it not better for the Bahamian Veterinary profession to deal with the need for low cost spays and neuters rather than depending on outsiders?

blackcat 10 years, 11 months ago

Dr. Bizzell, No one is saying that the Bahamian vets are not capable of spaying and neutering pets or providing excellent care and treatment to animals. The question here has to do with volume- the high number of stray animals is astounding as I'm sure you realize having worked and lived in the Bahamas for so long. Over the years I've had many great experiences with your practice and I've been pleased with the care given. Coming from a family of animal lovers, and having recently started my own animal family with my husband, I grew up rescuing strays off the streets with my parents and today as an adult, I do the same thing. But the animal lovers in this town are few and far in between and we NEED help. As Laura noted, why did you guys agree so far ahead only to crumble at the last minute. What difference does it make whether the help is Bahamian or not ? Why not accept this help for now and let's put down the swords, then once the volume has decreased a bit, we can go on with the steady local clinics as you detailed before. But don't you agree that this INITIAL help is in good faith and works towards the original goal ? Or is that not your goal any longer? You of all people know how quickly animals reproduce; to continue on a slow trickle path of spays and neuters will only cost the community MORE in the long run. A high volume clinic gives us a way to get a head-start on the control of the situation, bringing you , the vets, tons of good press. Of course these surgeries don't come for free- but terms were agreed to and numbers were worked out....Why now the sudden change ?

PBizzell 10 years, 11 months ago

Perhaps this has something to do with the recent change in the Presidency of the VMAB

PBizzell 10 years, 11 months ago

Ivy we all know that many Bahamian pet owners do not have the resources to pay even the cost of low cost spays. Hence Proud Paws, while asking for some kind of donation, always did the spays whether they paid anything or not. If we are to solve the dog overpopulation in New Providence we need to spay and neuter 20,000 animals ASAP. I don't think anyone knows where the funds to do this will come from.

Zags 10 years, 11 months ago

Unfortunately, the premise of this question is incorrect.

Neither the first statement: "As they did last year, foreign volunteers should be allowed to operate for free"; nor the second: "Local vets should undertake the project at a cost of $50 per surgery" is a true statement.

First of all, last year both local and foreign vets volunteered their time free of charge. No vet was paid for his or her participation. Secondly, last year all the surgical material used for the spays/neuters was supplied to the participating vets for their use. These supplies which cost approximately $50.00 per animal were bought with funds raised locally.

There is no such thing as a FREE SPAY [or NEUTER]. A spay [or neuter] may be performed at no cost to the owner, but the materials used have to be purchased - whether with funds raised through contributions, or by the vets purchasing them from their suppliers.

The question posed was: "Operation Potcake has been cancelled following opposition from local vets. How do you think the spay and neuter programme should be run?"

The correct choice of options should have been:

As they did last year, local and foreign veterinarians and their staffs providing their services free of charge and being supplied with all necessary surgical material paid for with funds raised locally at a cost of $50.00 per animal?

OR

Local veterinarians and their staff providing their services free of charge, but being reimbursed for all surgical material which they supply and use for the spays and neuters at a cost of $50.00 per animal?

In each case, the cost per animal is $50.00.

The mistaken idea that the foreign vets' surgeries are free is ridiculous. They are coming into a situation to assist the local veterinarians and everything that they need is provided. When local vets carry out spay/neuter projects throughout The Bahamas they take along their own supplies.

Unfortunately veterinarians in The Bahamas get a bum rap. This may be because they do not go around tooting their own horns and also because few people know how much pro bono work they actually do.

No other medical school graduate is treated with such disrespect in The Bahamas, and it is in stark contrast to the way that they are revered in other countries. I have never experienced the the way my fellow lay people and animal lovers feel that they are as qualified to make decisions regarding animal welfare as a veterinarian who has been through years of medical school.

As lay people we should be embarrassed by our own behavior and comments. We would never dream about disrespecting our physicians in this manner.

Learn more about a topic before you vent, there are always at least two sides to every story.

Jack 10 years, 11 months ago

To be honest I've never been to a country, and I've lived in several, where I have to question the vets as much as I do here. The average animal lover in the Bahamas seems to have a better idea than you lot on the whole. You don't get respect because you don't deserve it as a group and this whole fiasco just proves the point.

Zags 10 years, 11 months ago

I, too, have lived in several countries and have interacted with veterinarians in each one. I have come across good and not-so-good vets in each country as well. To paint all veterinarians in The Bahamas with the same brush is ignorant and unfair. The average animal lover may know something about animals, but that sort of knowledge cannot be compared to medical school training.

Jack 10 years, 11 months ago

To claim that you deserve respect just because you are a vet is also ignorant and unfair. You earn respect, you're not given it by graduating.

ETJ 10 years, 11 months ago

Sorry but while I have the utmost respect for anyone who made it through vet school, that does not necessarily imply a concern and compassion for the plight of homeless animals and an out of control pet population. And I agree; respect is earned, it's not automatic because someone has a degree in anything. Where is the respect for the animal welfare advocates who are in the trenches every single day and have to scrap and battle for every dollar they must pay to local vets even at discounted rates, this adds up tremendously. No one has proclaimed to be a veterinary expert, but if going to vet school also makes you an expert in animal welfare issues, then why have local vets not solved this problem already? This is not a medical problem; it's a cultural one. And if medical school training does actually convey a superior knowledge of how to deal with pet overpopulation, how come this country still has this massive problem?

PBizzell 10 years, 11 months ago

Jack that is one thing you have said that I wholeheartedly agree with and a comment that I have often made myself.

ETJ 10 years, 11 months ago

Spay neuter is the most logical solution to an ever increasing animal over population problem, and with good reason. The only way it actually works as a solution is when it can be targeted and hard hitting in a massive way in the biggest problem areas. Not by chipping away at it little by little. The VMAB admitted they cannot perform the number of surgeries hoped for during Operation Potcake 2014. Many of the foreign vets bring donated supplies so it does not necessarily cost $50 per animal in supplies. A cat neuter for example does not require $50 in drugs and supplies and neither does a dog neuter. Not all cat and dog spays require that amount either.

The VMAB admits they cannot do high volume and they need remuneration for what they do do. The VMAB says they can solve this problem but they need to explain exactly how they intend to do that; when to date, they haven't even come close. Expecting overburdened, struggling shelters and rescues to find even more money to pay local vets, and be content with doing a small percentage at a time of what needs doing, is not realistic. We'll still be swimming in cats and dogs a decade from now.

Pro bono is not charging $50 per surgery or giving discounts to rescues. Pro bono means FREE and completely donated.

This is not about respect for Bahamian vets. Any vet who is offended by this backlash should try to read that letter through the eyes of non-vet animal advocates who are working hard to end the suffering of animals in this Bahamas. It comes off as arrogant and self serving, and now it has gone international. That letter did not inspire any affection or respect for Bahamian vets, which is a shame as those of us who live here do understand what a challenge it must be to have a successful practice given the cultural mores and attitudes towards animals.

If a vet is unable financially to donate their time and supplies, there is no shame in that; God knows in this economic climate, many people are struggling and everyone in this Bahamas can understand and sympathize with that. It's obvious that there are simply not enough local vets to effectively deal with this problem. No one is saying that foreign vets are better in any way than local ones. Right now this country is suffering horribly - thousands of our citizens don't even know where their next meal is coming from. Many of them have pets. This is where the majority of problem lies.

We have a huge problem here that has been ignored for far too long, with thousands of suffering animals, and if it takes outside help initially to rectify it, there is no shame and disrespect for anyone in that. What would be shameful is if the VMAB continues on this obstructionist path, and the animal population continues to spiral out of control, as it is doing as I type.

PBizzell 10 years, 11 months ago

5,000 spays and neuters per year for 5 years MIGHT get our stray and roaming dog problem under control.

Animal_Lover 10 years, 11 months ago

As one of the committee members for organizing Operation Potcake, I am incredibly disappointed and discouraged by the letter we received on Friday November 22nd from the Vet Assoc. Earlier in the year we spent time discussing with the vets the way forward and have worked to foster good relations. We hosted a gathering in August with all the local vets to discuss why High Volume MASH Clinics and being in the communities is so important, to hear any concerns and to come to a mutual agreement. We attempted to fill the 5 day schedule with local vets (to which they agreed to donate their time but we would pay for materials at $30) but when the schedule was not adding up, we wrote an email and requested the help from foreign vets to come in. This would allow local vets to help as they could on a rotation basis (at the price of $30 and they would bring their materials) and still tend to their practices.

This email was sent on Sunday September 8th to all the vets, and then on Wednesday September 18th, Dr. Peter Bizzell and I spoke on the phone to which he, as the president of the VMAB at the time, agreed to allow us to bring in a total of 7 vets.

Because I trusted and had utmost respect for Dr. Bizzell and I thought we were all working towards the same goal - to reduce the suffering of animals, the number of unwanted roaming strays, and the numbers in the shelter - I had no reason to feel that this should have been in writing. I am a trusting person, and take a respectable person at their word. After all, we are working towards the same thing, so why would I need to worry? I did send this email to him to document our conversation:

Date: Wed, Sep 18, 2013 at 10:50 AM Subject: Further to our talk To: Peter Bizzell Cc: Operation Potcake Dear Dr. Bizzell Thank you so much for the talk this morning. As agreed, we will proceed with finding 6 high volume spay neuter vets, preferably that were here last year and Dr. Diane Scollard as a 7th will come to host a cat clinic out of the BHS. Looking forward to having a lunch next week when you are in Nassau. thank you, Laura

Animal_Lover 10 years, 11 months ago

The committee proceeded to plan, and line up vets to come in.

We asked the current vice-president of VMAB to attend the meeting on Tuesday September 19th, but after asking the response was no, and our attendance would not be necessary.

Then on Friday November 22nd, about 10 weeks out from Feb 2nd 2014 we received the letter. With deadlines so close for applying for the foreign vet permits and ordering the necessary supplies for about 1000+ spay and neuters, we had to make the unfortunate decision to cancel.

I would also like to add that the local vets had been offered by the organizers of Operation Potcake considerable positive recognition and rewards in return for donating their time. Each vet was going to be photographed and placed on Banners for the annual Bahamas Humane Society Banner Launch and recognized at the event at Government house. Prizes were going to be gathered so for example if 3 vets volunteered for 3 full days, they would be in a pool to receive 1 each of the 3 prizes weighted for 3 days, and so on. I say this to note that the vets were going to receive positive PR and acknowledgement from the public, promoting their practices.

Also, all of the vets received reminder emails about the open monthly planning Operation Potcake meetings that happened in September, October, and November, as well as the meeting minutes that were sent out for Sept and Oct. Communication has been more than open from our end making a letter 10 weeks before the program changing all the terms that were originally agreed downright disrespectful to all those who have invested extensive personal volunteer time (as ofcourse no one is paid who was organizing OP 2014).

We all really must keep the focus on what our purpose is - to end the unnecessary suffering of animals in The Bahamas and spay and neuter is the proven and most effect way to do this. I saw Dr. Lawrence write about the heartache she experiences from the suffering, the more spay and neuters we can do the less dogs and cats are born into a life of suffering. Most kittens and puppies die hungry, sick and alone. Many that do survive live a life of abuse, constant hunger, to die by getting hit by a car, starving at the end of a chain or from heart worm or tick born illnesses or may I add to be turned into the shelter when the family has a baby or relocates. Only the lucky minority know a life of unconditional love, comfort and safety.

We have a solution, so many people willing to help and a way to reduce it - so WHY ARE WE FIGHTING and denying help?

Thank you, Laura

PBizzell 10 years, 11 months ago

The approval for foreign vets to participate was agreed at a meeting of the VMAB when Dr. Bizzell was President. That approval was reversed at a special meeting of the VMAB held after it's new slate of officers was elected. Dr. B was not at that meeting and did not, and does not approve of that decision.

bigbadbob 10 years, 11 months ago

the more Pete opens his mouth the more I dislike him , a spay. neuter operation is only 13.50 worth of direct costs, medicine and scalpel and packs where the heck do you get 50 which is up from the 30 you first asked for . I would recommend people stop using you .

PBizzell 10 years, 11 months ago

The figure of $13.50 is not correct...I wish it was!

TruthSayer 10 years, 11 months ago

I keep coming back to two things. 1) The VMAB says they can deal with the problem on their own with local vets and 2) They can't possibly work more than 3 days because it's too much of a hardship.

You have people that will come and work 18 hrs a day, for weeks on end, at no profit (yes, it does cost to do surgery, about $18 per surgery, not $50)………..and from those 2 things, it always leads back to the 2 main issues. 1) Greed and 2) Pride

If you can't give more than 3 days, then you can't fix the problem. So back to the number 2, you have two choices, if you truly want the problem fixed. 1) Get out of the way or 2) Get back on board and work together to fix the problem.

We all hope the VMAB will make the right choice and do the right thing for the animals.

PBizzell 10 years, 11 months ago

I also hope the VMAB make the right choice .....however $18.00 is not an accurate cost of materials used for the average spay or neuter.

Puzzled 10 years, 11 months ago

Is it possible to see a copy of the "letter"? Maybe local pet owners could check the vets that had signed the letter and then if their vet is a signatory the pet owner can show their opinion of the letter by voting with their feet! Just check the signatories and go to a vet who did not sign. If however it is a letter from the VMAB, who decided to send it, was it approved by the committee or by the general membership? Maybe it was a decision by the chairman without consultation in which case pet owners should ask their vet where they stand onthis issue before continuing their pets' relationship with the vet.

TruthSayer 10 years, 11 months ago

I think the letter was posted with the original story. But I think you can get a copy if you go to Operations Potcake's Facebook page. But it was approved by the Vet association at a meeting they held and I would assume all the Vets attended and therefor approved.

PBizzell 10 years, 11 months ago

The agreement to approve foreign vets to participate in Op Pot 2014 was reached at a VMAB meeting held while Dr Bizzell was President. After the new slate of officers was elected a special meeting of the VMAB was called and the original decision to approve participation of foreign vets was reversed. Dr. B was not at that meeting and did not and does not approve of the new decision

PBizzell 10 years, 11 months ago

Not all vets attended, not all vets approved!

TruthSayer 10 years, 11 months ago

You can find a copy of their letter here:

http://www.operationpotcake.com

B_I_D___ 10 years, 11 months ago

Dang it...tried to hit the link and fat fingered the suggest removal link...ignore the removal request please, it was in error.

Sign in to comment